{"id":1114,"date":"2021-09-15T16:59:39","date_gmt":"2021-09-15T16:59:39","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.leafly.com\/wp-home\/?p=177420"},"modified":"2021-09-15T16:59:39","modified_gmt":"2021-09-15T16:59:39","slug":"qa-with-dr-carl-hart-the-future-of-drugs-in-america","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thcinct.com\/?p=1114","title":{"rendered":"Q&amp;A with Dr. Carl Hart: The future of drugs in America"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>  <title>Q&amp;A with Dr. Carl Hart: The future of drugs in America &#8211; Leafly<\/title>     <!-- This is Index Exchange, a script\/\/3rd-party integration that interjects GAM. It needs to be 'ahead' of GTM in the DOM, which comes from Cephalopod. GTM loads GAM. 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You&#8217;re not old enough to use Leafly.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p class=\"hidden age-gate__loading\">Redirecting you to<span class=\"redirect-domain\"><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"text-xs mt-auto\">By accessing this site, you accept<br \/>\nthe <a class=\"py-xl\" data-testid=\"tou-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.leafly.com\/info\/terms-of-use\">Terms of Use<\/a><br \/>\nand <a class=\"py-xl\" data-testid=\"pp-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.leafly.com\/info\/privacy-policy\">Privacy Policy<\/a>.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"container my-xl\">\n<div class=\"row\">\n<div class=\"col md:col-9\" id=\"article-content\">\n<p>Drugs are getting legalized left and right these days. Cannabis, though still federally illegal, is getting legalized by state governments at a rapid rate. Many cities have decriminalized psychedelics, and the state of Oregon has decriminalized all drugs and is currently setting up a framework for administering psilocybin in a clinical setting. A clinical trial on MDMA is set to finish in 2022, which could lead to FDA approval.<\/p>\n<p>It feels like there\u2019s something real happening, but possibly even corrupt. If you don\u2019t have the eyes, ears, and brain to notice, you won\u2019t. Dr. Carl Hart for sure notices.&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h2 id=\"h-who-is-dr-carl-hart\">Who is Dr. Carl Hart?<\/h2>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/drcarlhart.com\/\">Dr. Carl Hart<\/a> is an American neuroscientist, psychologist, and expert on substance abuse and responsible adult drug usage. He\u2019s currently the Chair of the Department of Psychology and the Dirk Ziff Professor of Psychology (in Psychiatry) at Columbia University.<\/p>\n<p>Dr. Hart has been in the field for over thirty years, and in that time, he\u2019s authored two incredible books: <em>High Price: A Neuroscientist\u2019s Journey of Self-Discovery That Challenges Everything You Know About Drugs and Society<\/em> (2013) and <em>Drug Use for Grown-Ups: Chasing Liberty in the Land of Fear<\/em> (2021). <\/p>\n<p>Because of his expertise, Dr. Hart has been featured in plenty of documentaries on both cannabis and drugs in the United States. His appearances include <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=a0atL1HSwi8\"><em>The House I Live In (2012)<\/em><\/a>; <a href=\"https:\/\/www.netflix.com\/title\/80117831\"><em>Take Your Pills (2018)<\/em><\/a>;&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.netflix.com\/title\/80213712\"><em>Grass Is Greener (2019)<\/em><\/a>; and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.imdb.com\/title\/tt13649700\/?ref_=nm_flmg_slf_4\"><em>Crack: Cocaine, Corruption &amp; Conspiracy (2021)<\/em><\/a><em>,<\/em> just to name a few.<\/p>\n<p>Dr. Hart\u2019s mission is not to tell you to do drugs, it\u2019s to create a world for people who do drugs to be able to do so safely, freely, shamelessly, with all the necessary education available, and without getting incarcerated. I knew he\u2019d be the perfect person to discuss the current and future state of drugs in America with.<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s the audio of our full conversation, and an edited transcription follows.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dant\u00e9 Jordan: How long do you think it\u2019s going to take for the government to legalize cannabis federally? Can the prison system afford to legalize cannabis?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr. Carl Hart:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think it\u2019s going to happen. Not in your lifetime, not in my lifetime. I don\u2019t know what it would take because the logic and the science is all there. And even states are making money off of it. So I\u2019m afraid I can\u2019t answer that because [cannabis prohibition] seems too important for law enforcement.<\/p>\n<p>I think the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.leafly.com\/news\/politics\/shacarri-richardson-doesnt-need-to-apologize-for-smoking-weed\">Sha\u2019Carri Richardson<\/a> case shows that we don\u2019t really want to acknowledge our hypocrisy. Everybody knows that that woman should be competing in the Olympics, but if she competes then we have to acknowledge that we\u2019ve been wrong in a more clear way than we have been with these states.<\/p>\n<p>With her case, it\u2019s almost like, in 1987, the Supreme Court looked at [<em>McCleskey v. Kemp<\/em>]\u2014it was a case in Georgia where they brought evidence showing that if you\u2019re Black you\u2019re so much more likely to be executed. They had all of this data, and the Supreme Court basically said, \u2018Well, we can\u2019t have too much justice.\u2019 They declined to do the right thing and make sure there was no racial discrimination in Georgia with the death penalty. They punted on it basically, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing with marijuana, in that we don\u2019t want to acknowledge that we\u2019ve been wrong and that we should go about correcting it.<\/p>\n<p>You cannot give less-than-well-educated white guys that kind of authority over Black guys who they see they\u2019re in competition with. We all know that model is screwed up and we know who\u2019s going to lose, but we haven\u2019t been willing to make the adjustments and do what\u2019s right, and cannabis is in the same way like that. We haven\u2019t been willing to acknowledge it publicly and nationally. Instead, we\u2019ve been able to get away with legalizing in predominantly white states.<\/p>\n<p> <a href=\"https:\/\/www.leafly.com\/news\/politics\/shacarri-richardson-doesnt-need-to-apologize-for-smoking-weed\" class=\"wp-block-leafly-blocks-leafly-single-inline-block leafly-inline-related-story\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"border border-deep-green-alt border-l-0 border-r-0 my-xl p-md font-bold\">\n<p>Related<\/p>\n<p>Sha\u2019Carri Richardson doesn\u2019t need to apologize for smoking weed<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/a> <\/p>\n<p><strong>DJ: Why do you think the mainstream acceptance of psychedelics is moving so much more rapidly than cannabis?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>CH: The people who are writing on this subject are primarily white, middle-class, educated men. And there\u2019s nothing wrong with being that, it\u2019s just that their drugs of choice are these psychedelics. And they write more favorably about those drugs, and they\u2019re more willing to vilify other drugs. And that\u2019s the reason. They are the opinion makers and the opinion makers shape how people feel about a number of things in this country.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DJ: I feel psychedelics moves faster than cannabis because cannabis was associated with Black and Brown people, versus psychedelics was painted as this white hippie<\/strong><strong> thing. So a lot of the white hippie people have now grown up into suits that are in boardrooms making power decisions, versus cannabis still being viewed as this Black people, hip-hop drug thing. I think because of that it\u2019s so much easier for America to paint psychedelics in a different light than cannabis. And that\u2019s why people are so much more interested in trying them and they\u2019re open to them, and that\u2019s why all this big investment and all of these things that are happening with decriminalization.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>CH: That\u2019s absolutely true. The thing is, is that in a lot of these states that have legalized, people see the tax revenue and money always trumps anything in the United States. Slavery was about money and those things, so it\u2019s the same here, it\u2019s about money. As long as we can make money off of it, then we will say, it\u2019s OK.<\/p>\n<p>But, in the South, you still have this fight with cannabis, because you have a larger Black population in the South, and the law enforcement communities, they\u2019ve been coming out strongly against liberalizing cannabis laws because the smell of cannabis is one of the main reasons for probable cause, and you take away that, then they can\u2019t fuck with people for no reason at all. And so, that\u2019s why they\u2019re fighting it.<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, the cannabis thing, it\u2019s an interesting thing to watch, because I watch people like Seth Rogen on TV shows and he still gets the mainstream shows, but he\u2019s an artist, so he gets a pass, same with Snoop Dogg\u2026 But still, hosts like Stephen Colbert, Jimmy Fallon, Seth Meyers, all those guys, they act like children when it comes to drugs and they do stupid-ass jokes, adolescent jokes that nobody\u2019s really gone in on them with, and they are the real problem.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s maddening watching these guys be allowed to shame, if you will, drug users. We talk about fat shaming, we talk about shaming people for their looks, but you can still shame drug users. And it\u2019s quite remarkable how this is going down. And when these same people have their glass of alcohol on their shows, it\u2019s like, \u2018Wow, this is really something else.\u2019 And nobody is really calling them out on it.<\/p>\n<p> <a href=\"https:\/\/www.leafly.com\/learn\/legalization\/marijuana-illegal-history\" class=\"wp-block-leafly-blocks-leafly-single-inline-block leafly-inline-related-story\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"border border-deep-green-alt border-l-0 border-r-0 my-xl p-md font-bold\">\n<p>Related<\/p>\n<p>The history of prohibition of marijuana in the United States<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/a> <\/p>\n<p><strong>DJ: Do you think it\u2019s because those people are appealing to, or targeting, middle America, where all of this is foreign, versus on the West Coast where weed is just weed?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>CH: I think the country, pop culture, no matter where you are at, I think they want to reserve the right to be able to vilify people for their drug use. We are really trying hard to delineate where drug use is OK\u2014oh, you\u2019re going to use Ayahuasca in the middle of some jungle with somebody who told you that they are native, or whatever, and you believe it, and he\u2019s like Jack from Brooklyn, but you believe it, and that\u2019s real, that\u2019s cool; versus, somebody else is doing DMT on his own, and they\u2019re just chilling, but that\u2019s not cool.<\/p>\n<p>So, I think society wants to reserve the right to be able to vilify people for their drug use; so they\u2019re trying to just put the boundaries around what they consider appropriate. But historically, society has always used drugs to vilify those people on the margins. And so, that\u2019s why it upsets me, when people start to vilify anybody for their drug use, for what they put in their bodies.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DJ: What do you think the future of things like psilocybin and LSD and ketamine are like on a retail front?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>CH: I don\u2019t think ketamine is going to be like that. I think that you might be able to get mushrooms and that might vary in terms of psilocybin dose, or something like that. But, I think medicine, that\u2019s an another enemy of any progress, is medicine. People don\u2019t realize, physicians are just cops with stethoscopes, they\u2019re just like cops and people haven\u2019t put that together yet. They\u2019ve been there to support the police, subjugate folks, and people haven\u2019t called them out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DJ: None of my experiences with psilocybin, or LSD, or DMT, or ketamine, or anything have been under guided sessions. I feel like it\u2019s going to drive people away from even participating in [clinics]. They might do it once, or twice, but to have to come back to a place and have to get a prescription and to have to do all this stuff for it, it just doesn\u2019t seem logistically feasible for normalizing the use of these drugs.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>CH: The thing that I worry about more than anything, is when we put more regulations on these things and more controls, the people who are going to pay the price are the people on the margins of our society. People who are conspicuously different. I mean, it\u2019d be Black people, poor people, all of those folks that we don\u2019t necessarily like. And so, whenever people are talking about more restrictions on these things, I know who\u2019s going to pay the price.<\/p>\n<p>And then, you see who\u2019s being arrested, you see who\u2019s being hounded, it ain\u2019t no secret. And you see who gets the jobs, in terms of who is in control of these things. People know, and that\u2019s why they keep these arguments in these extreme, stupid places. And the thing that saddens me more than anything, is that they fool people who look like you and me and people who are most likely to be negatively impacted by their regulations. And yeah, I have sons so that\u2019s why I fight like this, because I know that they are the ones who are going to be subjected to this shit.<\/p>\n<div class=\"my-lg wp-block-leafly-blocks-leafly-related-articles\">\n<p><h2>Leafly\u2019s guide to psychedelics<\/h2>\n<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><strong>DJ: Have you traveled around the world to study drugs and drug usage in other cultures? How is it different from American culture?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>CH: It\u2019s an interesting thing because in the United States we have this racially diverse country, and for better and for worse, in many places, it\u2019s not as racially diverse, but it\u2019s certainly economically diverse and diverse by class. And so, what you see is that, you go to Northern Ireland and you get white people catching hell like brothers and sisters in the US; you go to the Philippines, you see Filipinos who look just like anybody in their society to us, but they\u2019re catching hell because they\u2019re poor; and you go to places like Brazil, they have more Africans outside of the continent of Africa than any place, and you see the brothers and sisters who are dying and catching hell and they\u2019re blaming drugs for their misery, when in fact, it\u2019s police violence, it\u2019s state-sanctioned violence. It\u2019s all those same things that is happening in the United States.<\/p>\n<p>South Africa, same thing is going on in South Africa. You go to Ghana, in Ghana, the prisons there, they look like slave ships. And now they\u2019re talking about legalizing at least cannabis in Ghana and Uganda and some of these other places because they see the potential for money. But again, it\u2019s only the elites in those societies who are really benefiting. The elite are OK. It\u2019s the same shit in our society.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DJ: Around the world, in your travels, in terms of acceptance, or normalization, what is the hierarchy of drugs banned?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>CH: You go to South America, Colombia, Brazil, cocaine is like caffeine, it\u2019s not a big deal. And then, you go to the Middle East, Asia, opioids are not that big of a deal. So, drugs that are indigenous to a society, or they have a lot of experience with it, it\u2019s not a big deal. We get crazy about opioids in this country. You go to the Middle East, it\u2019s not a big deal. And then, you go to South America, cocaine is not a big deal. Europe, MDMA is not such a big deal.<\/p>\n<p> <a href=\"https:\/\/www.leafly.com\/learn\/social-justice\" class=\"wp-block-leafly-blocks-leafly-single-inline-block leafly-inline-related-story\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"border border-deep-green-alt border-l-0 border-r-0 my-xl p-md font-bold\">\n<p>Related<\/p>\n<p>Social justice<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/a> <\/p>\n<p><strong>DJ: Can you tell me a little bit about what happened in the Philippines? And why it became so dangerous for you to be telling the truth about drugs there?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>CH: Their President Duterte, I was giving a talk and his government was there and he had said something about methamphetamine causing your brain to shrink, and so my talk was on methamphetamine and I walked people through the evidence and just showed how this nonsense started in the states. Our scientists really implied this stupid shit. And then, you get somebody like him who has nefarious reasons, and so, I was pointing out that methamphetamine is a medication that\u2019s FDA approved in the United States; children are approved to take it, it\u2019s like Adderall basically. And then he came out and made a statement, he said something like, \u2018Black son of a bitch,\u2019 or something like that.<\/p>\n<p>So I went on TV, and I did another interview to clarify, to make sure people understood. And then, people took it as a challenge to their president. And so, then it just started to get crazy. People started sending me death threats and things like that. And I don\u2019t know that place and people were telling me that they can hire assassins for as cheap as $100, and then, I was like, \u2018I\u2019m breaking out.\u2019 So I broke out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DJ: How are you able to use heroin infrequently, but avoid addiction? Have you developed a dosage routine? Do you have a system in place?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>CH: Well, just think about any other drug use that people do, caffeine, alcohol, whatever, it\u2019s the same thing. I have work to do, so I can\u2019t use something every day, every night, whatever. I have a full, rich life, that\u2019s all that is.<\/p>\n<p>And heroin itself, one of the things that the American media has focused on, they focused on that, not so much out of curiosity\u2014because they don\u2019t really care to know anything about it\u2014the focus is there in order to dismiss me. It\u2019s not there to learn anything or to help these people who might be suffering, whatever they\u2019re suffering. It\u2019s there to signal to would-be listeners: \u2018You can stop listening.\u2019<\/p>\n<p>In the book I talk about all kinds of drug use, MDMA, cocaine, you name it, everything that I\u2019ve studied, I\u2019ve taken. And nobody talks about MDMA, nobody talks about 6-APB, which is a great drug, which would probably be my favorite. But nobody talks about those drugs, right?<\/p>\n<p>So, the goal is to really frighten America, make them horrified, and say, \u2018You don\u2019t have to listen to him. 30 years of research experience, hundreds of papers published in this topic\u2014you don\u2019t have to listen to him, because he\u2019s saying something that we disagree with.\u2019 And he\u2019s saying \u2018We should liberate the people and let the people make their own decisions,\u2019 and they\u2019re saying \u2018We can\u2019t do that.\u2019<\/p>\n<p><strong>DJ: Who do you think you would be if you had not discovered the benefits and positives of responsible drug usage?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>CH: So I have children and people ask that same question: \u2018Who do you think you would be if you didn\u2019t have children?\u2019 So, I might be a more selfish person, I might not know how to put other people first and think about other people\u2019s needs and understand that my needs aren\u2019t always the most important needs.<\/p>\n<p>The same is true with drug use. I wouldn\u2019t understand, I wouldn\u2019t be able to understand why people are doing what they do, whatever drug they choose. And I wouldn\u2019t understand too, the possibility of humans to be better. So, I would be a less well-rounded person, a less informed person. Like many Americans, I would probably be more like an adolescent and that\u2019s how many behave.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DJ: What are some of the newer drugs, or substances you\u2019ve been learning about recently?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>CH: I don\u2019t know if there are newer substances. I know in the states, for example, people are excited about kratom. I\u2019m really happy that kratom is available to people in the states but there are better opioids, but if you can\u2019t get them, you can use kratom. And as I alluded to, 6-APB, I\u2019m excited about that drug, but that\u2019s not that new, but it\u2019s new to many people.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DJ: Are you considering residency in a different country for freedom reasons?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>CH: Yeah, absolutely. Somewhere in Europe, we\u2019ll see whoever treats me better. Their drug policies are good. Africa wouldn\u2019t be bad, but they get too crazy about drugs, they are too moralistic about drugs. I like some African countries, but I\u2019m not going to be any place where I can\u2019t choose whatever psychoactive substance I want and not some bullshit one that the government has regulated.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DJ: Who are some other people that are speaking about drug usage and their experiences the way you are?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>CH: Wow man, that\u2019s a great question. I don\u2019t know if you know Rick Doblin, he\u2019s the guy who runs MAPS. He\u2019s one of the few people who have been out there for 30, 40 years and unapologetic about it. Rick is one of the few people. I mean, beyond that, I know a lot of people in this space and I know what they do, but most of them are cowards, they\u2019re in the closet. And so, nah, most of my heroes are dead.<\/p>\n<div id=\"author-box\" class=\"p-lg my-xxl bg-white rounded border border-light-grey elevation-low\">\n<div class=\"mb-lg\"> <img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/thcinct.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/09\/qa-with-dr-carl-hart-the-future-of-drugs-in-america.jpg\" alt=\"Dant\u00e9 Jordan's Bio Image\" class=\"lazyload inline-block mr-md rounded-full border border-light-grey\"> <\/p>\n<p>Dant\u00e9 Jordan<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<p class=\"text-sm\">Dant\u00e9 Jordan is a former member of the Leafly Subject Matter Expert team, and current freelance writer, video producer, and media consultant specializing in cannabis culture, strains, products, education, and everything else related to that lil\u2019 green flower. Contact him at smokingwithdante on Instagram, or dantenetworks(at)gmail(dotcom). His website is www.dantejordan.com.<\/p>\n<p> <a class=\"text-sm font-bold underline text-green\" href=\"https:\/\/www.leafly.com\/news\/author\/dant-jordan\">View Dant\u00e9 Jordan&#8217;s articles<\/a> <\/div>\n<div class=\"leafly-sailthru-signup p-lg my-xl bg-white rounded elevation-low border border-light-grey\">\n<p class=\"text-xs pt-lg\">By submitting this form, you will be subscribed to news and promotional emails from <a href=\"https:\/\/www.leafly.com\">Leafly<\/a> and you agree to Leafly&#8217;s <a href=\"https:\/\/www.leafly.com\/company\/tos\">Terms of Service<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.leafly.com\/company\/privacy-policy\">Privacy Policy<\/a>. You can unsubscribe from Leafly email messages anytime.<\/p>\n<\/div><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p> <!-- Chartbeat --> <!-- End Chartbeat -->  <!--\nPerformance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: https:\/\/www.boldgrid.com\/w3-total-cache\/ Served from: _ @ 2021-09-15 09:59:44 by W3 Total Cache\n--><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Q&amp;A with Dr. Carl Hart: The future of drugs in America &#8211; Leafly Leafly Leafly \u00ae Loading\u2026 Where are you from? noyes Remember me for 30 days. I confirm that this is not a shared device. Darn! You&#8217;re not old enough to use Leafly. Redirecting you to By accessing this site, you accept the Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. Drugs are getting legalized left and right these days. Cannabis, though still federally illegal, is getting legalized by state governments at a rapid rate. Many cities have decriminalized psychedelics, and the state of Oregon has decriminalized all drugs and is&#8230; <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":1115,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"fifu_image_url":"","fifu_image_alt":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1114","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-marijuana_information"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/thcinct.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/09\/qa-with-dr-carl-hart-the-future-of-drugs-in-america.jpg","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/thcinct.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1114","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/thcinct.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/thcinct.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thcinct.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thcinct.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=1114"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/thcinct.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1114\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thcinct.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/media\/1115"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/thcinct.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=1114"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thcinct.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=1114"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thcinct.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=1114"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}